Why the U.S. Still Has No Large Yacht Code

One outdated number has quietly shaped the entire superyacht landscape in the United States: 300 gross tons. Once yachts started exceeding that limit, the law effectively pushed them toward a commercial-style regulatory world that does not match how most private owners actually operate. So why does the US still lack a clear, modern large yacht code and why do so many American-owned yachts end up under Cayman, Marshall Islands, or other offshore registries instead of the US flag?

We unpack the real-world consequences of treating a mobile industry like it is fixed in place. When governments add yacht taxes, duties, or tariffs, yachts do what yachts have always done: they move. That movement does not just affect billionaires, it hits marinas, boatyards, fuel docks, restaurants, shops, and the seasonal “mom and pop” businesses that depend on visiting vessels. We also connect the dots between US flag rules, the Jones Act, and the national-interest logic that drives maritime policy, even when the outcome is messy for modern superyachts.

Then we get into the surprise 2018 turning point, when Congress attached large-yacht language to the National Defense Authorization Act and tasked the Coast Guard with creating a pathway for certain large yachts to fly the US flag while staying non-commercial. We talk about why implementation has lagged, why so few owners choose the option, and how costs like 1.5% duty and potential double-digit tariffs can wipe out the perceived benefits instantly. Along the way, we explore legal workarounds such as bareboat charter structures and why the only message every legislator consistently hears is economic impact backed by real numbers.

If you found this helpful, subscribe, share the episode with someone in yachting or maritime law, and leave a review. What policy change would actually convince more owners to choose the US flag?

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Transcript

Why the U.S. Still Has No Large Yacht Code

[00:00:00] 

Diane M. Byrne: Welcome everyone. Michael, as always, it is great to see you

Michael Moore: Thank you. Glad to be here

Diane M. Byrne: So I'm always excited when we schedule these podcasts because we usually have a really good topic, and it's typically a very timely topic. Today, obviously, is still a good topic, otherwise we wouldn't be speaking about it. But I wouldn't say it is so much a timely topic as it is a perennial topic. This is something that comes up year after year after year, and it's a subject of why the United States doesn't have large yacht code the way that multiple other nations do. And I'm really glad you suggested this because there's a lot to unpack

Michael Moore: Right. I think, 

History of the 300 Gross Ton Rule

Michael Moore: So the yacht industry is very mobile. Things move around. Uh, we've seen examples of this over the years.

Uh, Sardinia tried to tax yachts, uh, one summer, and the result of which was that a lot of mom-and-pop [00:01:00] businesses on Sardinia went out of business. We had the Balearics another year tried, the Spanish government tried to tax yachts, and they just stopped going to the Balearics. And so millions of dollars are lost, uh, by well-intended, um, persons who see it as an issue of fairness, I think.

What is the, you know, we can tax this thing, we can put duties on it, we can tariff it, we can do a lot of things. But the reality is, to your point, uh, 1920 is the year that the really one of the last codes was passed, um, and it established a volumetric measure of 300 gross tons as the, um, but, and that, that beyond which yachts would not go, and it was not possible for a yacht to be over 300 gross tons.

So the vessel, uh, that was, uh, larger than 300 gross tons was required to go through a strict commercial analysis. Yeah, well, the result of that was [00:02:00] that vessels over 300 gross tons, uh, just went someplace else to the benefit of the offshore registries, the open registries, the like Liberia, like, uh, more, more importantly, Cayman and Marshall Islands, uh, which are more yacht registries

Diane M. Byrne: Right. Right. And I've been asked this question a lot as to why it took so long to really effectively get it on the government's radar, so to speak, not to, you know, not to use a pun, and I think there's, there's two answers to that. First and foremost, it's not the top priority,

Michael Moore: Right

Diane M. Byrne: nor as much as a, a huge, as much as it's a huge priority for all of us, it shouldn't be the US government's number one priority.

This is a massive country. coastlines alone are 97,000 miles. nearly four times all of Europe combined, so, and

Michael Moore: Amazing.

Diane M. Byrne: nation, right?

Michael Moore: Yep

Diane M. Byrne: that's a lot of territory for the [00:03:00] Coast Guard to be covering, to say the

Michael Moore: Massive

Diane M. Byrne: And from another standpoint, it's, I think, the age-old story of something gets passed and it gets forgotten about- Yeah

and it really takes a virtual army of people to say, "Hey, legislators, this needs to be updated." That's how everything happens, and

Michael Moore: Right

Diane M. Byrne: have to be American have that happen. It happens in France, it happens in Italy. Every country has that issue. So

Michael Moore: True

Diane M. Byrne: to say that there weren't people in the United States working on it, and I know from, from my standpoint, being a member of the US Superyacht Association for a long time and knowing people at the National Marine Manufacturers Association, people who are members also of the Marine Industries Association of South Florida, over and over and over again, all these different members of all these different associations were having conversations with legislators and saying, "This needs to change."

Michael Moore: Mm-hmm.

Diane M. Byrne: It was a matter of getting [00:04:00] enough legislators to start really taking a look at that very outdated law

Michael Moore: Totally true. The, the, these laws that people sort of take for granted, which is, uh, sort of your point, they get passed and, uh, they just, uh, become the way things are, the way we've always done it. Uh, lawyers just r-react to the law as it ex- is presented to them. They don't really think in terms of what needs to be changed so much.

That's something that lobbyists are hired to do. They try to start arguing positions, usually through some sort of vested interest. And, uh, uh, probably the best example that pops to mind is, uh, a US-flagged commercial vessel must be US-owned, US-built, and, uh, US-flagged. Uh, that you can't be a commercial vessel without those three things.

Well, why is that? Well, you know, you could argue, but my understanding of a lot of the [00:05:00] flag rules regarding true flags like the United States or countries like France or Italy or Germany, it's, you know, a national interest thing, uh, as opposed to the open registries like Cayman Islands, Marshall Islands, uh, Vanuatu, or even lesser real countries, but not quite so big like Jamaica.

They depend on these revenues to basically sell a little, a little piece of their sovereignty. That's, uh, it's sovereignty for sale. You can be, uh, you can own a, a Cayman Island vessel or a Jamaican flag vessel. Now, a Jamaican flag is a more of a country fully formed than, say, a what was nor- formerly an overseas territory like the Cayman, the Cayman Islands.

But it's usually, many times it's national interest.

Diane M. Byrne: Mm-hmm.

Michael Moore: In the United States, it's a national security interest. They think they can get these-- theoretically can get these yachts back or these ships back into the, the, the national defense of the country. It's, uh, it's [00:06:00] theoretical, but it actua- it actually has happened, uh, over, in, in years ago, so

Diane M. Byrne: Yeah, and to that point, the, um, what you were talking about in terms of the national interest, it's, 

Flag Economics & the Jones Act

Diane M. Byrne: it's pretty much tied to the Jones Act, is something that a lot of our listeners may be familiar with. And, and it's also the Jones Act is one of the best explanations as to why yachts are, have, y- the, the commerce aspect.

Sorry, I had a... My brain was going faster than my mouth for a second. The commercial yachts are really not permitted to do commerce in United, in the United States unless it is US built or US flagged.

Michael Moore: Right

Diane M. Byrne: goes back, the Jones Act is for all vessels. It's not only, it's

Michael Moore: That's right. That's right. Well, that's right. And it's theoretically a, a national security thing. Um, and, uh, it goes back over 100 years. And it's actually killed a lot of US [00:07:00] businesses. Again, to the point, vessels, news... This is a newsflash, actually move around.

They, they cross national borders. They, they sail the seven seas, uh, literally. Um, but the, and the old, but the old ideas of, uh, uh, national security for, as a purpose behind the passage of the Jones Act, it kind of-- There was that subset of supporting the domestic maritime industry. You know, there was, you know, very heavy lobbying for the, the merchant marine fleet and to build more vessels here.

And I think the reality is that the, a lawyer in the firm of Burlingham, Underwood & Lord in New York City, Stanley Wright was his name. He was actually known then as Burlingham, Underwood, Wright, White & Lord. But he is the guy who said, "Why don't I just go and create a flag in one of these countries that we can kinda control or at least influence?"

And he was the visionary lawyer [00:08:00] who, on behalf of, I'm sure, American clients, went to Liberia and started the Liberian, Liberian ship registry. When you legislate in the maritime world, whether it's yachts, as your point, or ships or merchant marine, all the things go with that, it's very difficult to foresee all of the unintended consequences you're creating by these well-intended laws until someone comes along and says, "Well, I got a better idea," and then the law gets changed

Diane M. Byrne: Mm-hmm. Right, very true. So speaking of legislation, 

The 2018 NDAA & Tilman Fertitta

Diane M. Byrne: that 300 gross ton limit

got lifted through legislation, and in a very surprising way in 2018. That was when, uh, Congress attached language the National Defense Authorization Act. And that, I'm sure right now as some people are listening, probably [00:09:00] raising some eyebrows. At the time it raised some eyebrows too, because when you look at it from a logical standpoint, you say, "Well, wait a minute. Why would language pertaining to recreational vessels be attached to something impacting the Defense Department?" But to your point before about how yachts actually have been pressed into service on behalf of the US government for defense purposes, it, it kind of does apply.

It's still seemingly strange, but it does still apply

Michael Moore: Totally. The, the, the so-called, uh, as you refer to it, the National Defense Authorization Act, the John McCain National Defense Authorization Act, um, was a, was a, frankly was a Trump idea. You know, Trump has, as we all kind of have grown to learn through, I guess, six years of his presidency, his fourth-- first term, and now he's into his second term.

But he has these broad views about, uh, [00:10:00] uh, uh, the world, uh, at large. I think he kind of sees himself as the, uh, this is a personal opinion, kind of sees himself as kind of the leader, literally and figuratively of the free world, if not the unfree world. And so it was on his initiative that in two thousand, um, uh, eighteen that law was passed.

But it was passed to really deal with the military. He thought we should spend, spend more money toward competing with major powers like China and Russia, and to create these, uh, more of a military response. He wanted troop levels by the John McCain Act increased, uh, military pay was increased, military hardware was increased and m-more was being manufactured.

Um, the, the global fleet was modernized. And then along, uh, along the way, someone said that, you know, these yachts are getting so big, and this is, uh, my take on it [00:11:00] They-- suddenly there was a, uh, a, a, an aspect of that where the Coast Guard, especially as the sort of regulator ex-- uh, the enforcer of the maritime world said, "You know, we might need those large yachts someday."

And, uh, that kinda was on the radar screen, uh, I think the-- but I think the real catalyst came from one man, Tilman Fertitta. Now, the irony is that for all that he did, and for all of the talk, and for all the references to this, uh, wealthy individual from Texas, he never actually took advantage of it.

And I've confirmed this. I think you may have been the person who told me first, uh, the first time that he had never actually flagged his yacht in the United States. He has several yachts, very large ones, and we thank him for that. Um, but the reality is that he was, I think, the, the, the impetus for, uh, creating this [00:12:00] yacht code aspect, because no one really knows what the thing's gonna be, because it's never really been fully implemented since nineteen-- since two thousand and eighteen.

But it was, in fact, something that came out of the United States Coast Guard headquarters in DC that would apply to three hundred gross ton vessels. They would be allowed to fly the US flag. They would be exempt from commercial inspections. And some of the other things, uh, uh, they would be-- they could not be operated commercially.

You couldn't carry cargo or, not that anyone would, but maybe carrying passengers. You could see where that crosses, because now you're seeing these vessels that, that look like small cruise ships. In fact, they may be small cruise ships. But are they small cruise ships or just large yachts? Sometimes it's hard to tell.

Um, but all of that was as of two thousand and eighteen s-sort of referred to the, the Marine and Coast Guard agency [00:13:00] to implement. And they did implement it, thereby allowing or providing a pathway for large beneficially owned, uh, I mean, yachts beneficially owned by Americans to become US flagged. Now, there's a suggestion that that's happened.

I personally have not seen any of that. I have not seen a single vessel in our law office, um, you know, flag US through that facility by using the Marine and Coast Guard agency facility in the UK. But there is no large yacht code in the United States as of this moment

Diane M. Byrne: Yeah, and I think where some of the confusion comes from, 'cause I was in DC coincidentally Tilman Fertitta had contacted his legislators and the language ended up getting attached to the John McCain Act. Um, w- I was with a group from the US Superyacht Association, representatives from the National Marine Manufacturers Association were there, members of the Marine [00:14:00] Industries Association of South Florida were there. It was part of an annual 

Michael Moore: effort 

Diane M. Byrne: called the American Boating Congress, where various individuals from the industry go and speak to members of Congress about wise legislation that's on the books, things that need a little bit more implementation, and new legislation that should be considered. And all this kind of came to a head at the same time, the Coast Guard, in that language, the Coast Guard here in the US was tasked with coming up with new code by 2020,

Michael Moore: Mm-hmm.

Diane M. Byrne: sounds to most people like, okay, two years, that's a good amount of time.

But when you realize the Coast Guard has a pile, you know, probably as, as tall as they individually are on their desks, and people get pulled off onto this project, people get pulled off onto that project, it, it, it didn't end up happening within the two years.

Michael Moore: Right

Diane M. Byrne: From speaking with some of those Coast Guard representatives, the thought process was [00:15:00] they would look at what the MCA had done and say, "Okay, that's a good starting point, and that'll kind of be the, the basis, if you will, for what we will do.

We will still create an individual large yacht code, for the time being, if something meets the MCA qualifications, then we can put them through the process of getting the US flag here." were a handful of yachts, I don't know the total number that did go through that process. Um, from, from my estimates, I would say it's less than two dozen,

Michael Moore: Okay

Diane M. Byrne: so it's not a large amount. Um, and there's a variety of reasons why think perhaps each of those owners did, and a variety of reasons as to why more owners have not, because we know Americans are the majority buyers of superyachts. And you actually even touched on [00:16:00] one of these possible explanations, too. It-- the, the tariffs. and,

Michael Moore: Oh yeah

Diane M. Byrne: uh, use taxes.

Michael Moore: Mm-hmm.

Diane M. Byrne: That's even if you flag the yacht US, if it's foreign-owned, if you-- Uh, not foreign-owned, sorry, foreign-built,

Michael Moore: Right

Diane M. Byrne: it has to be imported

Michael Moore: Right.

Diane M. Byrne: the United States

Michael Moore: Very true. I mean, that's,-- And the way, sort of to understand that I'm not implying anything here, but a yacht owner, uh, everything looks pretty good, you know? I can fly the US flag. I, I like the stars and bars. I'm, I'm a patriotic American. I've made my money in America. Uh, I will be exempt from, uh, commercial inspections.

Not carrying passengers or cargo. Don't, don't intend to do that. Uh, and, uh, no problems with, uh, disclosing my US citizenship. Again, a patriotic American. Got nothing to hide. Beneficial and record ownership fully disclosed, no problem. And [00:17:00] then someone says, "Oh, and by the way, you will be expected to pay one and a half percent for the, the yacht duty."

And if, uh, Mr. Trump is still getting his way, you'll have to pay 11% a tariff based on the fact that the yacht was built in the Netherlands or in Germany. But wait a- But, but you don't publicize that. You don't say to your adoring public who loves you and, uh, and, uh, enjoys your products or your restaurants or your businesses, you don't say, "You know, I, I really, I do love America, but I'm not sure I want to pay $11.5 million on my $100 million yacht in order to fly the stars and bars when I'm basically getting minimal benefit For, for flying that flag.

I mean, look, if you're under a cruising permit or if you're not duty paid, you [00:18:00] cannot sell the boat in the United States. You can't market the boat in the United States, that's true. But you can go to any boatyard. You can spend your money. You can stay at any marina. You can get a cruising permit and enjoy the beautiful, uh, uh, Narragansett Bay in the summer, go up to Maine.

It's all there for you. So it is a-- it's, it's kind of goes back to your earlier point, uh, that I think is just, you know, legislation is complicated. You, you have a lot of unintended consequences. I think that Uh, the people that get involved in these laws, a lot of times, honestly, Diane, they have no idea what they're doing.

It's, it's not as easy as it looks. It's, it-- you and I deal with infinite wealth every day, no problem. These people that are highly successful, the most su-successful people on the planet, they're not-- they, they're very careful people, and they have a sense of fairness. They will not go to [00:19:00] Sardinia for only ten thousand dollars to have dinner.

No, they go, "And that's ridiculous. Why would I do that? We love, uh, you know, the lovely couple that has that beautiful restaurant, and they've had it in their family for a hundred years on the cliff. But I'm, but I'm just not gonna pay ten thousand dollars to, to go have dinner in Sardinia.

I'll just, uh, I'll go someplace else. I'll go to, I don't know, Corfu or someplace." I know that's their thinking because I've been dealing with it for, since I started practicing law decades ago. To me, the one of the unstated things about the pr- some of the things I've read is the, the duty question is huge.

By the way, the 

Bareboat Chartering Workaround

Michael Moore: yacht world has successfully avoided, um, the, the restrictions on commercial yachting in the United States by, by the simple device of the bareboat charter. The law says, if you divest yourself of the ownership in, uh, uh, ownership indicia, if you, if you convey that to your charterer, you just simply convey the bare boat, no [00:20:00] crew.

The bare boat and everything that comes with it. You are now the owner. You're now the owner pro hac we say for that time. You are the despondent owner. You are the bareboat charterer. You, You effectively avoid all of the restrictions of, uh, that are placed on yachting with respect to what's called coastwise trade.

That's a Jones Act concept. But that's a burgeoning industry right now from what

Diane M. Byrne: Mm-hmm.

Michael Moore: we've seen.

We've seen over and over, um, uh, particularly in South Florida. One of the things we should talk about in the future, Diane, is called yachts engaged in trade. It's a complete workaround by a flag state saying, "Can we get away with a limited grant?" Think of Jones Act in America, but it's the same sort of thing.

It's a limited grant to get around commercial laws, and every country has gotten in line, and [00:21:00] recently Italy's gotten in line.

Diane M. Byrne: Mm-hmm.

Michael Moore: Greece for years had these protectionist laws, and that's-- and getting back to our subject at hand, I mean, all of these laws are kind of well-intended. The Greeks wanted-- they want to do the right things for the Greeks. Of course, what's wrong with that picture? Except the problem is they killed their yachting, uh, uh, world. Think about it for a minute. When is the last time you saw a yacht built in Greece? Whereas countries like Turkey who got with the program because they did the gulets. They had these little locally built, very classic boats.

They could not build these things fast enough. People were rolling in there, uh, living large, spending money, enjoying their whole, their life in these beautiful turquoise waters of the, uh, Turquoise Coast. Um, Somewhere along the way the Greeks went, "Hmm, I wonder, you know, we have this historical enemy in Turkey and somehow they are just kicking our butts in [00:22:00] yachting."

Yeah, they are. And you got a lot more islands, dude. You got a ma- massive amount of beautiful tourist islands that everybody wants to go to see the Oracle at Delphi or whatever. Uh, but it just kind of gets back to, in a very broadly stated way, um, all of these examples are just variations of, "We are mobile. You want to tax the crap out of us?

We will flag in Cayman Islands. You want to s- hit us with a surcharge in Italy? We'll go to another country. We love you, and we basically do more than our share of helping you, uh, through any means." But I'm getting a little bit cranked up here. But, you know, these, these, these little borders, they try to put-- they t- they try to put up these physical borders, these taxation borders. It's gotta be built in the US, it's gotta be owned by US citizens, it's gotta be crewed primarily by US citizens.

And immediately the yacht industry's lawyers and advisors and [00:23:00] managers are trying to figure out a way around that.

Diane M. Byrne: Mm-hmm.

Michael Moore: That's what we do

Tariffs, Duty & the Path Forward

Diane M. Byrne: I think the bottom line for any legislator here in the US, certainly internationally as well, the, the one common language of all legislators is economics,

Michael Moore: Yeah, it should be.

Diane M. Byrne: Co- coming

Michael Moore: Rightly so

Diane M. Byrne: jurisdiction, I can tell you from my standpoint when I have sat with legislators and I, I believe it was Cory Booker's legislative aides several years ago, fr- with fellow US Superyacht Association representatives, we showed them the numbers, literal numbers from an owner of a 180-foot yacht. And we said, "This is the annual expenditures," and it was broken out for fuel, it was broken out for the money that the owners and the guests spend ashore when they go to the restaurants and things like that. their eyes got as big as saucers. They could not believe it, and they looked at it, and they looked [00:24:00] at us, and they said, "This is one boat?"

And we said, "Yeah." And in New Jersey, Atlantic City has a very large marina, and to kind of have a little full circle moment here, Tilman Fertitta owns that marina, or not owns, I should say he has the managerial rights to it. The city of Atlantic City owns it, but it is literally at the doorstep of the Golden Nugget Casino.

Michael Moore: Yeah

Diane M. Byrne: the advertisements, if anybody goes to Atlantic City, I'm sure they're very familiar with it, the advertisements for Golden Nugget show that marina with his old boat, the Westport Boardwalk, in the marina.

Michael Moore: Beautiful.

Diane M. Byrne: So

Michael Moore: Everybody wins

Diane M. Byrne: that was like, first of all, that's perfect advertising for yachting. But showing them the budget, long story short, gets them to understand what kind of money is truly flowing into their economy, flowing into their taxis, their shops, their restaurants, their florists.

We showed them the floral budget. They could not believe it. [00:25:00] And in Newport, they know they get multiple yachts. In Maine, they know they get multiple yachts. In San Diego, they know they get multiple yachts.

Michael Moore: Mm-hmm.

Diane M. Byrne: it's a matter of getting them to fully grasp the impact, and then they say, "Oh, now we know why you keep talking to us about getting this changed and letting these large yachts fly the flag."

Michael Moore: And I think your example is such a wonderful, perfect example because I know that Senator Cory Booker wants to do the right thing. He wants to be, uh, the good guy. Of course, he's a Democrat, and I think it would be, um, agreed that he's, uh, on the liberal side of the party.

Mo- I would-- I don't know if I would consider him a, quote-unquote, "progressive." I'm not sure what these labels mean anymore now that we have the socialist, uh, label coming up in various corners. But B- [00:26:00] but Cory Booker Is a bright man who the reality is he looks at this, uh, th-this Atlantic City phenomenon that's actually employing a lot of people in the, uh, up and down that casino, uh, network.

I think, the realization is, that-that's America. That's the... There has to be that balance. There has to be that balance, and so I commend him for, uh, having his people meet with you.

You're an industry representative. You're actually a, believe it or not, a capitalist. I'm sorry to tell you that, but you own your own business. That's the convergence of the two worlds. Uh, it's the world starts with why should Tilman Fertitta get a, such a benefit? Uh, why, why are we changing the law for that guy?

Well, you know, because [00:27:00] he's America, my friend. He's built an empire. The, the chain of restaurants that he owns is phenomenal. At the end of the day, yeah, guess what? He also owns a few yachts. It's not his world, it's just part of his world. We wanna be a part of that world. Well, it's starting to look and sound a little like soap box time, Diane.

But I mean, it's such a great starting point to, to talk about this balance. And, uh, again, one of the points that we went off on, it was kind of the last piece of the whole thing was But will he pay one and a half percent to bring the boat under US flag, just bring it in, one and a half percent for duty?

And Mr. Trump, with his vision, eleven percent for tariffs. Okay. Well, what's happened is a lot of people have just kinda [00:28:00] avoided tariffs. They just don't come to the United States. So the yacht world can do that.

Diane M. Byrne: Right. Right

Michael Moore: You know, I t- I, I tried to send-- Let me give you an example. Um, just one example. I'm sorry to... I don't wanna get too far afield, but it's one of the things that I think hopefully will make the Yacht Law podcast more enjoyable.

But I had a big, big problem recently with a yacht. It was a-- It's a $20 million situation, and they couldn't get the deal done because they needed to get some work done on the boat, and the fight was over getting the work done. So g- how can we get the work done, which no one can agree who's gonna be responsible for it, and at the same time deal with a boat that is, um, not duty paid, but will-- is gonna be beneficially owned by an American?

I, I said, "Well, why don't we send the work to Bradford's, uh, shipyard in the Bahamas? You know, let's move it, let's just move it offshore." Sorry about that, Fort Lauderdale, all my friends at [00:29:00] the local yards. I'm sorry about that, but I'm trying to get the deal done. But the word came back they don't have the capability of doing the work.

So now we're back to square one. The seller doesn't wanna do this, and the buyer doesn't wanna do that. I'm the lawyer in the middle. I'm trying to get this work done. Well, that's just, that's what we do. And it's all, it's driven by self-interest and who's gonna pay for something.

But sometimes there's a roadblock. In this case, the American technology roadblock. The technology is not at the Bradford facility in the Bahamas. So, uh, you know, it, it-- this is the-- I suspect that had they waived the duty on the 300 and, uh, plus gross ton yacht, uh, threshold, that you would see a lot more yachts flying the US flag around the world.

Diane M. Byrne: Well, I think it's safe to say this is a subject that is, uh, [00:30:00] still very prominent on a number of people's radars in the industry, and there will still be efforts to make legislators aware of the economic impact and of the importance of really getting this over that, uh, that last hurdle to get the code created.

I don't know when that will happen 'cause the wheels of, uh, progress do slowly turn in the government as we know. But certainly we will have a very good new episode to bring to everybody once that happens.

Michael Moore: There's always another subject to talk about, Diane, and they're all-- they actually are all important.

Diane M. Byrne: Yeah, absolutely.

Michael Moore: All of us

Diane M. Byrne: Well, as, as they say in showbiz, stay tuned, kids.

Michael Moore: Indeed.

Diane M. Byrne: Well, everybody, we will be staying on top of these developments, and we thank you as always for listening. If you want to suggest a topic for us to cover in an upcoming episode, you can email us. The emails for [00:31:00] Michael and for me are in the show notes. Until next time, I'm Diane Byrne, and Michael, as always, you have the last word

Michael Moore: I like the way you do that. I appreciate it. It's always a pleasure chatting with you. I have to tell you, it's, it's like sitting with you, having a private conversation with a, a knowledgeable, uh, industry insider, and it's always enjoyable. Thank you, Diane. Have a good day

Diane M. Byrne: Well, well thanks. The feeling is mutual, and I hope everybody who is listening feels like they're on that nice big couch with us

Michael Moore: There you go

Diane M. Byrne: Thanks everybody

Michael Moore: Take care